Unrestrained hubris is the undoing of many a person. There are no codes of conduct, no interventions which will curtail it. Sometimes only banishment will suffice. To allow hubris to flourish, as has been the norm for chiropractic for so long, poses a risk to public health and safety.
Most of the information in this post was obtained from a closed, Australian chiropractic Facebook group. After much deliberation with friends, I have decided that the public interest far outweighs the interests of a group which cannot legitimately claim privacy, with a member list tallying 624, so far.
Public safety is paramount to the self-serving interests of these chiropractors who flagrantly breach codes of conduct, health policies, and any semblance of professional courtesy, in their chase for legitimacy, based on the unwarranted treatment of magic, invisible conditions (subluxations); this is a legitimacy they do not deserve.
The first time I came across the habit of chiropractors conducting their secret treatments in hospitals was in my recent series on anti-vaccine chiropractors. In Anti-vaccine chiropractors 33 we met Catherine Langford, a member of the Chiropractors’ Association of Australia. She conducts her business at Twig Chiropractic, in South Australia. On her Facebook page Langford included this picture, of herself “adjusting” a neonate in the North Eastern Community Hospital, in Adelaide:
As I stated in the original post, I contacted the hospital to ask about their policies of allowing chiropractors to adjust on premises, to no avail. I’ve heard nothing back from the hospital. As I also noted in the original post, I don’t know if this is Langford’s own baby, or a customer’s.
The Langford example was very public. She proudly posted it to her Facebook page, twice. I now want to turn to the private examples from other chiropractors.
Helen Alevaki is the President of the Chiropractors’ Association of Australia Victoria branch. Alevaki conducts her business at chiropractic4wellness.
In a post from the chiropractic group, Alevaki admits to sneaking into maternity wards under the guise of being a friend of the baby’s parents, who are indeed her customers, to check brand new babies:
Alevaki’s admission was posted in response to a question asked by Oliver Croke, son of CAA National Board Member Tony Croke, as to everyone’s “favourite adjustment ever”:
About a week after that admission I was startled by another thread, in which a stream of chiropractors admitted to conducting their business inside our hospitals.
Andrew Victor Smith is a chiropractic student at Murdoch University, and a chiropractic assistant at Nervana Chiropractic. We met the anti-vaccine Smith in Anti-vaccine chiropractors 9: Smith asks his peers:
Need advice on adjusting people in hospital.
My brother went in for a fairly emergency appendectomy, and there were apparent complications. Long story short he will be in for a few days, on antibiotics and blood thinners.
I know his best chance at recovery is in a subluxation free state, and due to the heparin was going to visit him with the activator.
Have people had problems adjusting friends/family in hospital? Or is the best way just to wait for the most opportunistic time, adjust him and claim ‘we didn’t hear any clicking sounds’ when the nurse asks?
Jenny Roppola is the first respondent. Roppola is a former Board Member of the Chiropractors’ Association of Australia National franchise. Roppola worked at Ginninderra Chiropractic, in the ACT. Roppola admits working on her baby in the NICU, and then allowing a colleague to do the same. She told the nurses, later, what she had done:
Adjusted my daughter (14 weeks prem) in NICU as soon as I was allowed to touch/hold her. Did sacral work SOT style…. Never said a word…. Then when she got bigger and I was able to breastfeed behind screens, a colleague came in to work on her…. Nurses even commented on how we had the best behaved baby in there…. Told nurses later, especially after her ‘colic’ settled so well and quickly.
Smith further confirms that the they know the behaviour is unprofessional:
I can understand that, with a newborn an adjustment and a cuddle/play look similar to the uninitiated.
My brother is 24, and a big guy. Best chance is sitting him up and using activator down his spine.
Worst that can happen is getting kicked out of a hospital I guess?
Olivia Gleeson is a member of the Chiropractors’ Association of Australia. She also works at Nervana Chiropractic in Western Australia. She freely admits that she has adjusted “lots of bubs in hospital”. She also admits that her friend Alison Young (Scott), a former Board Member of the Chiropractors’ Association of Australia Western Australia outlet, also adjusted babies in hospital. Young, formerly of Nervana Chiropractic, now runs the business, The Innate Child.
I have adjusted lots of bubs in hospital, I just go in do my work and then go home. Ali adjusted Tom in the Nicu a couple of hours after birth and the nurse wasn’t happy but my hubby said we are doing it anyway
Roppola then offers some further advice to Smith:
I’ve done sacral SOT type work on a few preggers and post-partum women. Use the curtains when you visit your brother and get creative….. (That doesn’t sound so good……).
Jim Ainsley also admits that he frequently goes into hospitals to work on his customers. Ainsley works at Care Chiropractic Queensland. I emailed to ask if he was a CAA member, but, got no reply – neither from Ainsley, nor the CAA.
have been thee lots of times never had a prob.
Stephanie Le Coz is a member of the Chiropractors’ Association of Australia. We have met the anti-vaccine member of the Australian Vaccination Network in Anti-vaccine chiropractors 23. Le Coz conducts her business at Penshurst Chiropractic Centre. She also admits to conducting her business inside our hospitals. Please pay particular attention to Le Coz’s comment:
Have adjusted my mother and my CA post surgery . Do not worry and go for it xxx
There is a reason I wanted you to pay attention to that comment. Le Coz has worked on people, in our hospitals, post surgery; and some people liked the comment? Who?
Tony Croke is a National Board Member of the Chiropractors’ Association of Australia, and he condones the behaviour as depicted by Le Coz. We have met the anti-vaccine, former decade-long AVN member, Croke before, here and here. He runs a business called Liberty Chiropractic. This guy is a leader of Australian chiropractic. He is a spokesperson. We have a huge problem here:
Alice Nguyen works at a business called Optimum Health Essentials, in NSW. She is a member of the Chiropractors’ Association of Australia. This person mistakenly believes that patient consent is all that is needed for chiropractors to enter hospitals to treat their customers. Nguyen is also a doula:
Go for it! when they see you are working on your brother with focus and intent from a place of love, they will very unlikely intervene. Besides, it’s his consent, and consent means everything in a hospital setting.
Katelyn McGregor works at Pioneer Family Chiropractic in Victoria. McGregor admits to frequently practising her business inside hospitals, and provides tips for Smith to avoid detection. I emailed McGregor and the CAA so as to ascertain her CAA membership status, but, got no reply. Once again, please pay particular attention to the comment:
U don’t need to broadcast it but it’ll be fine. Ditto to being in there often, all good. Go at visiting time when their’s lots of people around and wack the curtain around. I visited my mum in neuro wards of lots of hospitals. No biggie… And ur right , he needs adjusting. Get well to him x
McGregor’s comment was liked by Tony Croke, that National Board Member of the Chiropractors’ Association of Australia. When the board condones it, it means go for it, right?
James Love is a UK-based chiropractor, trained in Australia. He runs a business called Love Chiropractic. He is a member of the Chiropractors’ Association of Australia, and the United Chiropractic Association (UK). So, heads up, UK readers. He is registered in Australia and the UK. You will find this one hard to believe. Love adjusted a person in A and E. In the emergency department. He just pulled back the curtain and went for it:
I’ve adjusted a patent of mine who was in A&E, just closed the curtains after the nurses visit, no worries.
Tim Shakespeare is probably the closest thing to the personification of hubris amongst this bunch. He works at Healing Wave Chiropractic, in NSW. Shakespeare is an anti-vaccine chiropractor and disciple of Billy DeMoss, the deranged Californian. He has referred to the recent Australian Academy of Science immunisation handbook as “Mein Kampf”. I’m serious. Lately, Shakespeare has been reminding his colleagues of the long-awaited return of anti-vaccine chiropractor, Tim O’Shea, to our shores. You’ve met Shakespeare here, here, here, and here. He is a Board Member of the Chiropractors’ Association of Australia New South Wales outlet. Shakespeare went into a maternity ward, wearing his chiro shirt, to adjust his brand new niece. And he doesn’t care what anyone thinks:
Why should they care? They think its next to useless anyway…
I adjusted my niece with a CWD (Chiropractic World Domination) t-shirt on.
Bryce Fleming also works at Healing Wave Chiropractic. Is there something in the water? Fleming is a member of the Chiropractors’ Association of Australia. For Fleming, deceit is all about confidence:
I have adjusted a few peeps in hospital too. The more confident you are being there, the less questions get asked
Smith returns to inform his peers that the adjustment did indeed take place, and that it will happen again:
Doesn’t matter, he got adjusted then and he will get adjusted in hospital again
Tom Dawson is an anti-vaccine member of the Chiropractors’ Association of Australia. He runs a business called Wellbeing Hawthorn. We’ve met Dawson before in Anti-vaccine chiropractors 3. Dawson also seems to think that the patient’s demands override every professional ethic in regards to visiting rights:
If the PT wants you to, you can do it, simple as that, I actually lifted a man in Albury off a guerney in the base hospital there 17 years ago, put him in the car and drove him over to Wodonga( Vic licence only) as the medicos said they couldn’t help him anymore and just left him there. I offered to take him back but he walked out and went home. Saw him and his family last week. Nowadays I just set up and go for it whenever asked.
I want to cite a few examples of policy documents which may be pertinent to the behaviour of these chiropractors, and to the possible breaches they are committing. There are probably several more which can be added. Feel free to add more in the comments.
From the Queensland Department of Health, on the requirement for adequate credentialing of medical and other staff, including allied health. Chiropractors are not listed, but, the closest they would come to “clinician” status is allied health. I say that begrudgingly, and with apologies to allied health staff. I can only imagine that this policy document reflects broader national requirements demanded of all practitioners wanting visiting rights in our health facilities:
Credentialing and defining the scope of clinical practice
All identified clinicians are to be credentialed and have a defined scope of clinical practice to support the delivery of safe and high quality health care within Queensland Department of Health.
This policy applies to the Queensland Department of Health and is relevant to professionals identified in the Professional stream requirements section of this document.
Clinicians employed within Hospital and Health Services should refer to the Credentialing and Defining the Scope of Clinical Practice Health Service Directive.
– patient safety: ensuring clinicians practice within the bounds of their education, training and competence and within the capacity and capability of the service in
which they are working
– consistency: aligning with National standards and other Queensland Health credentialing processes
– due care and diligence: all parties act with due care and diligence to support procedural fairness. Credentialing and defining scope of clinical practice processes are underpinned by transparency and accountability.
Implementation Standard for specific mandatory professional stream requirements
5. Allied Health Professionals
The Queensland Department of Health relevant agencies (i.e.: HSSA, HSCI) shall:
– ensure all allied health professionals intending to engage in complex clinical practices not traditionally performed by their profession are credentialed and have a documented defined scope of clinical practice.
– ensure all allied health professionals working in Queensland Public Health System facilities but not employed by a Hospital and Health Service are credentialed and have a documented defined scope of clinical practice
See that last part again: those not employed in a hospital, but, wanting to work in a hospital, must be credentialed and have a documented, defined scope of clinical practice. You cannot do that when you are sneaking into hospital wards and conducting clandestine manipulations on hospital patients, without the knowledge of treating practitioners.
Another area of concern with these chiropractors, many of whom are anti-vaccine, is their brazen disregard for immunisation policy directives. From NSW Health:
Occupational Assessment, Screening & Vaccination
REQUIREMENTS UNDER THIS POLICY DIRECTIVE
Transmission of vaccine preventable diseases in health care settings has the potential to cause serious illness and avoidable deaths in patients, staff and other uses of the health system as well as others in the community. NSW Health Policy Directive PD2011_005 Occupational assessment, screening and vaccination against specified infectious diseases provides a framework for immunisation and screening of health care workers, other clinical personnel and students to minimise the risk of transmission of these diseases.
The following sections describe the requirements for students, other clinical personnel (including locums), new recruits and existing health service staff and the procedures to be followed by agencies, educational institutions and health facilities in fulfilling the requirements of the policy directive.
And, interestingly, all other clinical personnel must comply with the policy directive, and have evidence of protection against specific infectious diseases:
Other clinical personnel including locums
Other clinical personnel, including locums, must:
- Provide evidence of protection against the infectious diseases specified in PD2011_005 and comply with the requirements of PD2011_005 at their own cost, prior to appointment; and
- Submit a Form 1: New Recruit Undertaking/Declaration and Form 2: TB Assessment Tool to the health facility.
The locum recruitment agency must:
- Inform all locum personnel of the requirements of PD2011_005.
- Ensure that all locum clinical personnel have completed each section of Form 1 and Form 2 and have evidence of protection against the specified diseases.
- Ensure that locum clinical personnel are not referred to a health facility if they do not comply with the requirements of PD2011_005.
The health facility must:
1. Assess the individual’s evidence of protection and whether TB screening is required.
2. Issue a Certificate of Compliance if the individual complies fully with the requirements of PD2011_005.
Again, given the brazen and public anti-vaccinationism of at least some of them, what are the chances that any of these chiropractors are going to be able to comply with these immunisation directives?
I haven’t even touched on infection control, and workplace health and safety issues; not to mention insurance and other liabilities, should an adjustment go awry, in secret.
One document I will cite is the Chiropractic Board of Australia’s own Code of Conduct for Chiropractors.
From the introduction:
1.1 Use of the Code
This Code seeks to assist and support health practitioners to deliver appropriate, effective services within an ethical framework. Health practitioners have a professional responsibility to be familiar with this Code and to apply the guidance it contains.
This Code will be used:
• to support individual health practitioners in the task of providing good health care and fulfilling their professional roles and to provide a framework to guide professional judgement
• to assist the Chiropractic Board of Australia (the Board) in its role of protecting the public by setting and maintaining expectations of good practice – if professional conduct varies significantly from this Code, health practitioners should be prepared to explain and justify their decisions and actions, and serious or repeated failure to meet this Code may have consequences for registration.
From Section 2, on the provision of care in an appropriate manner, with appropriate clinical history, and with appropriate liaison with other health professionals:
2. Providing good care
Care of the patient is the primary concern for chiropractors in clinical practice. Providing good care includes:
a) assessing the patient, taking into account his or her history, views and an appropriate physical examination; the history includes relevant psychological, social and cultural aspects
b) ensuring that the diagnosis/clinical impression is reasonable, relevant, justifiable and based on sound clinical reasoning
c) formulating and implementing a reasonable management plan (including providing treatment/care and advice and, where relevant, arranging investigations and liaising with other treating practitioners).
I’m not sure how any of the above can be undertaken with any degree of certainty or integrity in a secret, rushed visit in a hospital facility where the chiropractor knows they are not welcome to manipulate their customers.
Further to the point of working with other practitioners: how can this happen when chiropractors sneak into health facilities, pretending to be an everyday visitor? How can there be any collegiality between health practitioners, given the implicit deceit? In which example has any chiropractor consulted with the primary health care practitioner, the real doctor? From Section 5:
5. Working with other practitioners
5.1 Respect for colleagues and other practitioners
Good care is enhanced when there is mutual respect and clear communication between all health professionals involved in the care of the patient. Good practice involves:
a) communicating clearly, effectively, respectfully and promptly with colleagues and other practitioners caring for the patient
b) acknowledging and respecting the contribution of all practitioners involved in the care of the patient.
And this brings me to another point. How are these chiropractors going to maintain accurate patient records? They sure as hell won’t be writing in the patient’s notes. This would be another breach of their own Code of Conduct. From Section 9:
9.4 Health records
Maintaining clear, appropriate and accurate health records is essential for the continuing good care of patients. Chiropractors should be aware of relevant State and Territory legislation in relation to health records management. Good practice involves:
a) keeping accurate, up-to-date and legible records that report relevant details of clinical history, clinical findings and determinations, investigations, information given to patients, medication and other management
b) ensuring that records are held securely and are not subject to unauthorised access, regardless of whether they are held electronically and/or in hard copy
c) ensuring that records show respect for patients and do not include demeaning or derogatory remarks
d) ensuring that records contain sufficient information to allow another chiropractor to continue the management of the patient and to facilitate continuity of chiropractic care
e) making records at the time of events or as soon as possible afterwards and include a record of every patient consultation.
I think what this practice really shows is the utter disdain held for evidence-based medicine by these chiropractors. Policies and procedures are implemented for good reason: the health and safety of the patient is paramount, and a good part of this is made possible by the maintenance of accurate health records, and with the collegiality of evidence-based health teams working together in the interests of the patient’s health. To have magic-reliant cowboys stroll into this environment, in secret, with curtains drawn, shows the lack of respect they have for other practitioners, and their own codes of conduct, which amazingly claim ethics as one of their central tenets. Remember, these people are aiming to take their place beside trained medical professionals as primary health care providers. They don’t even have the decency to consult with a real doctor; the same doctors of whom they are so disdainful, yet whose courtesy title they crave.
The Friends of Science in Medicine have provided a statement regarding the information presented above. I didn’t bother contacting the Chiropractors’ Association of Australia, again. I wouldn’t have expected them to reply anyway, as you have already seen.
Friends of Science in Medicine statement:
The highly unprofessional and potentially dangerous practices documented here demonstrate just how undisciplined is this “profession” despite the government’s initiative to protect the public by having all Chiropractors registered nationally. Their adherence to ethical standards of practice is the responsibility of the Chiropractic Board of Australia. A rapid and firm response from this Board following these revelations will be expected and monitored by “Friends of Science in Medicine” and no doubt many other professional bodies emphasising the importance of having credible scientific evidence of clinical effectiveness underpin the delivery of health care in Australia.
Importantly, not one chiropractor in that closed group, who witnessed those threads, cautioned against this activity. Not one. Present and former CAA board members joined in, promoted, and condoned the activity. This speaks volumes.
Tell me: what does it take to deregister a chiropractor these days? And, why do we allow them to use the courtesy title, “Dr”?
Update October 7 2013.
The ABC is looking to get in touch with people who have used chiropractors to talk about their experiences, good or bad. If you are interested in talking to them please email: email@example.com
Hard to take in the lack of professionalism demonstrated in these self reports. The chiropractic industry has a long way to go in regulating their sales people.
I have to note the wonderful ethics of one, whose alleged spouse was a patient “taking cortisone” for an “ear infection” (the last time I checked, that is typically either an external ear infection or otitis externa or otitis media, of which neither is an indication for a steroid. As opposed to an autoimmune or allergic condition, where a steroid is indicated for.
Meanwhile, said “professional” began dating his patient and shortly after graduating from the university, married his patient. Said “professional” then mentions how “night clubs are for suckers”, further advocating close personal relationships with one’s patients. Something questionable even when Sigmund Freud was practicing.
Said ethics bereft “professional” then went on to talk about “adjusting” a three day old, “just because it seemed like a good idea”.
On second thought, not ethically bereft, morally bankrupt.
Was there even a syllable of chastisement over either morally questionable event? Not even a hint of it, indeed, approval.
But then, we see further moral bankruptcy in Alice Nguyen, “Besides, it’s his consent, and consent means everything in a hospital setting.”
Apparently, the law, hospital regulations, ethics all are foreign to her. In her world, I guess I’d be permitted to perform brain surgery on a whim on a friend of family member, regardless of qualifications, so long as there is consent of the patient and screw the health care professionals, the law, the facility regulations or simple ordinary reality.
I don’t know if it’s criminal or mental illness, let’s mix it up a bit, criminally mentally ill.
As for the “professional” that sneaks into A&E to “treat” a loved one of mine against all ethical, legal or regulatory requirements, said “professional” may well require treatment for a subluxation of their own. A medical subluxation, not the mythical one, I’m thinking at C-3-C4, only because doing that to the Atlas requires a lot more effort.
Since they don’t have to obey the law, why should I? Especially in an emergency situation, where such meddling can very well, at a minimum, endanger the life of a patient, at worst, kill said patient.
You would have to wonder whether their professional indemnity insurance extends to working in a clinical setting without proper credentialing or scope of practice.
I’ve never heard of any form of professional indemnity insurance that covers covert, unauthorized actions in unauthorized locations far from the location of one’s practice.
Indeed, I happen to know a few actuaries and can not even consider one of them, for any amount of offset, would recommend underwriting such illicit practices.
They’d have a far lower risk offering indemnity insurance to street drug dealers.
This was a long read Hank. I need a break. So, just for me, can your next article be about doctors who sneak into chiropractic practices and secretly take the temperature and blood pressure of the patients they find there? I’m sure those doctors will have a secret FB page where they high-five each other over their successful covert activities.
Oh, and I wonder what Alice Nguyen would do if one of the hospital patients asked for a cigarette in bed? Patient consent is all that matters, isn’t it?
Only when on high flow O2.
Patient consent also overrules the laws of physics and chemistry.
As does this brand of Chiropractic practice.
I am absolutely disgusted at the ignorance on display by these chiros. They are not contracted to the health service. Full stop. The admitting specialist is medico-legally responsible for the treatment of the hospital patient. These idiots have no concept of professionalism, let alone professional responsibility. Where is the communication with the interdisciplinary team? Where is the documentation? Where is the professional responsibility? Code of Conduct? Patient safety? Adherence to policy regarding infection control and staff immunisation requirements?
FFS, the CAA and their members are a joke. Ignorant, dangerous people plying magical snake oil and taking pride in flouting the establishment.
Time to act, CBA.
I saw a comment on one chiro page, linking to a Gallup poll and claiming chiropractors were highly ranked for Ethics and Honesty.
In fact, chiros scored just 38%, slightly ahead of bankers and journalists and well behind nurses (85%), pharmacists (75%) and actual doctors (70%). Even clergy ranked well ahead of them (52%) despite years of revelations of child abuse in the Catholic Church, among others.
Since when was 3.8 out of 10 a high score?
So Andy what you’re saying is that Chiros lied about being honest? They probably don’t even get the irony.
“Since when was 3.8 out of 10 a high score?”
Well, if one were comparing that to a politician, they’re hanging in the upper stratosphere.
Compared to a nurse, they’re close to an equal to a politician.
Of course, politicians don’t lie. At least not when their lips and fingers are still. Something else they share in common with these chiropractors.
Would a professional engineer sneak into another company’s engineering facility to add his own touches to the design of a bridge? Would an airline pilot sneak into the cockpit of another airline’s plane without their knowledge to run his own preflight checks? Would a dentist whose relative was undergoing a root canal at another practice sneak in while the treating dentist was distracted and administer some treatment of their own?
I simply cannot think of another profession anywhere in the world, except perhaps the CIA and other spy agencies (and let’s face it – their job is to sneak around unnoticed), which would conduct itself like the chiropractors here in Australia are doing. It’s simply appalling.
For a bunch of people who insist they’re highly trained and respectable professionals, this scandal shows they’re not terribly bright, and not terribly respectable.
I feel ill……anyone know a good chiro?
I was being ironic…. I felt ill from reading how disgusting these chiro’s act…so I need one to fix me….don’t worry I think chiro’s should be banned.
The one’s that use evidence based treatments should do a conversion course to physical therapists, the rest of the quacks that still practice the “innate intelligence” bullshit should be banned.
Yes Harry, I was being facetious given the subject matter 🙂
I think, however, that while the local pharmacist is allowed to sell homeopathy, as if it was some form of medicine, chiropractic isn’t going anywhere. Chiros are just one part of a big problem.
Andy, if you think you have problems, here in the US, we have a politician who wants to put radioactive waste into the drinking water supply in order to improve the health of the populace.
Apparently, he never heard of the Radithor debacle a century ago.
Of course, here in the US, we have a number of confounding factors. Homeopathy, a failed educational system, a failed mental health care system and lunatics in office.
Dam you internet / written word for not being able to convey the subtleties of the language….
I concede. 😉
If one were to judge all practitioners of chiropractic practices by the candle displayed by the actions above, that would be an oxymoron, tux.
You know, I knew this blogpost was coming, and the media articles. But to have it here in full really brings home the true horror of it all. I am VERY angry now.
Excellent work Hank.
Hank. Outstanding job on exposing these charlatans for what they really are. I am sickened in so many ways. They have this god-like image of themselves. They ‘know’ the secret that seems to have evaded PROPER and QUALIFIED medical staff. They wield their ‘clickers’ in readiness to take on the mighty enemy called science and medicine. If I hear them say once more about ‘five years university trained’ I’ll chunder. They apparently learn nothing. I’m about to start a Bachelor of Nursing, full time at University. This will take three years. So in those extra two years, is that where the magic happens?
The largest problem I have is though, is they are exposing young vulnerable babies to vaccine preventable diseases. Not only are these babies being handled in such a way to cause serious physical harm but they are being handled at close proximity by someone who doesn’t believe in vaccination and therefore would not be vaccinated or had boosters as an adult themselves. Abhorrent behaviour.
And where is the CBA in all this? Hank you been doing exposes for a few weeks now. Not one comment or mention from the CBA or their spokesperson. They knew this was coming as they weren’t even able to make a comment to the journalist exposing chiroquacks this weekend. They have no reporting systems, they expect the general public to contact them regarding chiroquacks. Well it’s being done. Get off your backsides CBA and sort these f***ers out once and for all.
CBA, they be like a 50 year old tiger, lots of roaring no teeth, no claws and no threat.
Well, there is this case from a couple of months ago, where a chiro was struck off for a while.
Other than the $50,000 fee for a CP patient, I can’t see what made this case so special. He was performing treatments without an evidence base – which hardly appears to be a problem unique to him.
Meanwhile, a chiro who breaks a baby’s neck gets told to go and learn how to do it right next time.
I know someone who runs professional indemnity insurance for a category of medically-related personnel. The company will not touch chiropractors.
Adjustasaurus rex needs a name change. Needs a dinosaur name that better sums up the line of bullshit he’s in… hmmm…
Ah! How about Lie-nonychus antirrhopus? Although kudos to him for having chosen a predator/scavenger in the first place.
I love the irony here… talk about sneaking around cloak and dagger. How can anyone take you serious when you do it yourself? Posing as a member, falsifying information, reporting lies. Sorry, cannot take you serious and neither should anyone else. No street credibility.
Not expecting this response to be published. So do with it what you want. I see your “congregation” is also getting smaller. Good luck with that.
Okay, Whatever. I’ll bite. What information have I falsified? What lies have I reported? Screenshots are awesome. Are you saying I’ve doctored them?
There is a vast difference between being admitted into a Facebook group of 624 members – by one of the admins – and pretending to be a health care practitioner sneaking into someone else’s practice, a hospital, to perform magic.
Enlighten me. Your cloak and dagger anonymity has peaked my interest.
Sheesh, I bet your name’s not even Hank. Am I right?
Clearly I must conclude from this that everything you think is wrong is right and everything you think is right is wrong and I don’t have to provide any evidence to back myself up – because my name’s not really Andy anyway!
Let me get this straight. You are equating reading a Facebook group for chiropractors and the completely unethical and dangerous practice of treating clients without the knowledge and consent of the hospital? A group of chiropractors who include a core of vehement anti vaccinationists. Sneaking into maternity wards, to perform a treatment with zero evidence of efficacy and very real risks.
Yes that makes sense.
Then you seem upset that he is reporting lies. Maybe if chiros stopped telling lies there would be nothing to report.
What a fascinating view!
So, law enforcement officers and members of the press who use similar tactics in order to acquire evidence for an arrest or a story must also be unprofessional!
What the members who are being “lied about” via screen captures of their own admission of criminal trespass brag about is irrelevant, as they are professional trespassers. Just a short step above a common burglar.
For, they are prohibited from practicing their non-evidence based medicine within said facility, as they have no treatment privileges, are not employees and hence are prohibited by posted policy from treating patients. Indeed, any treatment has zero evidence, as all diagnostic imagery isn’t available to them, labs are not available to them, indeed, the only thing available to them is the poor patient!
As for “street credibility”, I far prefer professional credibility to that which the thug on the street trusts.
What is operable is reputation, credibility, known honesty and evidence presented. Not how someone a bare step above a common burglar proclaiming their wonderful deceptions in accomplishing their criminal trespass and in one case, kidnapping (removal of military personnel from a military base hospital without the permission of the commander is quite literally kidnapping, regardless of the consent of the victim. That is Commonwealth law universally and interestingly enough, US law as well.
Spot on Andy, his name is not Hank. Have a read through his about page.
“I am not a health care professional. I am not a scientist. I rely heavily on them, and their evidence. I am an average schmuck who dislikes the hypocrisy, lack of empathy, lack of integrity, lack of ethics, and lack of evidence by those who would want you to believe them to be devoid of those traits. And I dislike it when they do it for your hard-earned, and to the detriment of public health.”
I battle to see the evidence on this page that this is to the detriment of public health. I do see a lack of integrity and lack of ethics here. All basically pointing to hypocrisy. Things on this page is at best here-say.
Maybe you should write about yourself?
Whatever, I seen absolutely no possibility of your presenting evidence that a rational person could accept that could present such a possibility.
That said, I’ve been surprised in the past when I expected the worst, I will be again, though it’s always been infrequently.
I would publicly apologize if you present honest, verifiable evidence that I am wrong.
I honestly *wish* that I was wrong.
But, the evidence so far does not support that.
Or am I chopped liver? Only Hank may suffice?
You’d hate it for me to come there. I’ve never had a problem with some extralegal methods to expose crime.
I did it for literally generations, including my own home neighborhood. When I deployed for the war, it took two years for the endemic drug dealers to return to my neighborhood.
It’s so far, taking longer for certain nefarious types to return to their old neighborhoods in Afghanistan and I retired three years ago.
So, do you honestly want to play?
I have zero problems selling my house to do so, I don’t live in in it anyway, due to familial health issues.
And I’d *really* love to find a cause.
And a small hint, your own SAS knows me. By this moniker. They’d side with me. They saw the same horrors of uncontrolled disease as many times as I have. They also consider your cause public enemy number one. They’re only hoping against hope that their government grows a brain for a change, as I hope mine does.
Do I detect a significant amount of butthurt here, Whatever? You are extremely courageous and anonymous in your accusations. Graffiti. Nothing more.
I know his name’s not Hank. I was being facetious and making the point that his moniker is irrelevant to the information he’s presented. And while there might be a discussion to be had over how the information was collected, I’m not aware that any laws have been broken – and the information is still what it is unless you’re contending that it’s all a fabrication.
I’m going to go out on another limb though, and assume your name isn’t “Whatever”. Am I right?
It seems the chiroquacks don’t like their dirty little behaviours being exposed to the light of day! No surprise when those behaviours are at best unethical, and at worst, illegal and harmful to health. Rock on, “Whatever”.
I know someone mentioned in this story.And I think you should get your facts checked and double checked. They are heath professionals.and study just as much . Like any profession there be good and bad ones. Doctors or surgeons can cover up their mistakes without us knowing. And they are “allowed”into hospital. If a chiro wants to visit friends or family in hospital , they can and if that includes a treatment asked from them by their loved one that to me is the same as bringing in an essential oil that the loved one wants. Or a partner giving a massage. So because many doctors don’t tolerate a chiro and possibly feel intimidated by them that’s why they do what they do more discreet. You obviously work in a hospital where no mistakes are made every doctor and nurse are perfect.because they follow policies and procedures to the dot always. Let me know where that is and I “sneak”in and evaluate what I see and hear !
Please show me the policy where it states chiropractors are allowed to practice in hospitals, without the knowledge of treating physicians, or even nursing, cleaning, or catering staff.
I am talking about a friend partner or family member being a chiro at the same time. And I wonder if you believe that all nursing staff, surgeons and doctors in a hospital follow policies and procedures all the time. You may not believe in chiropractors that’s your good right, talk to people who have been helped by the and saved the public a huge amount of money not spend on edicare for operations etc etc. They wanted my husband to fuse a few disks in his spine , which is only moving an excisting problem. His Chiro helped hi big time and still does.And there is a few assumptions in your statement that are false and I know it as a fact. Also isn’t hacking someones facebook site illigal????????
1. I have nothing against chiropractors who practice based on evidence, in their own practices.
2. What assumptions in my statement are false?
3. Hacking into a Facebook site? You are terrible at this. This is embarrassing.
4. Provide one more anecdote and you’re out of here.
Kiddo, first, you really are horrible at this. Indeed, were you to attempt anything you claim is acceptable and legal in any nation on this planet and the facility wanted to force the point, you would be in prison.
If an employee violates policy, said employee is disciplined. It really is that simple. Indeed, how many treatment facilities and hospitals have you worked in beyond zero? I’ve worked in a bit over a dozen over the decades. I know what laws and policies exist in multiple nations, you obviously do not and speak from your platform of ignorance for the world to see.
Do explain to all how asking for an invitation is now hacking? I guess I also hack into my computer when I type in my username and password, huh? I must’ve hacked my way into my family friend lists too when they selected me as family.
Want an anecdote that is true? A chiropractor who did their manipulation on my father’s neck, dislodging plaque from his carotid artery, which then gave him a stroke. The chiropractor in question was advised of and indeed, had it notated in his chart that my father was scheduled for surgery the following week to remove said plaque.
Fortunately, my father survived. He now has vascular dementia.
Said chiropractor departed our state, never to be seen again.
Pity, I wanted to meet the chap and discuss his treatments, methods, exercising contraindicated procedures in vascular disease patients and what I did for US Special Forces.
It would have been a short discussion.
Diana, it isn’t what matters as acceptable to you, as the world does not revolve around you or your quack friend.
What matters is organizational policy, case in point, the hospital’s authority to govern who many do what to whom, when and where and no other soul may do so without explicit permission of the hospital administration.
That is a fact, backed by organizational policies and law throughout the world.
My primary care physician may not come unto my military installation and treat me or any other patient without permission from both the installation commander and the treatment facility commander. Said physician may not treat me in any of 8 hospitals in my area, but can do so in three others. If said physician attempted to do so, at the least, the physician could be charged with trespass and potentially, in some jurisdictions, assault.
Hence, your opinion is that and worse, it is defective in a legal sense.
I just shudder at the thought of one of these idiots showing up at A&E to adust the cervical spine of a patient suffering a true subluxation, resulting in a “hangman’s break”.
Here in the real world, said quack would end up in prison on a charge of murder.
Why do you have the feeling that you have to attack me and my friend? It would be a wonderfull world if everybody would obey the rules at all times. It doesn’t happen unfortunately.And everything would go via legal procedures . Chiropractors study the human body just like doctors. And if I am in a hospital and would like my chiro to come and see me and adjust me then why not , trust me the good ones don’t adjust you with a risk of killing you! Just like a good surgeon.But you are allowed to dislike them and probably had bad experiences with them. Wishing you a nice day
Stating that you are lousy at proving your non-point isn’t an attack. It is simply a statement of fact.
If your friend is performing procedures against hospital policy, your friend not only should no longer have any form of license, your friend should be prosecuted in a court of law. Period.
I know of no physician who performs procedures in a clandestine manner and worse, brags about it to a group of peers, who also admit to such activities! That isn’t just unprofessional, it is being a blatant scofflaw.
Such people have no code of ethics that normal people can comprehend, indeed, only sociopaths seem to understand such a code.
Nurses study the human body just like doctors. Should they perform brain surgery clandestinely in A&E?
I’ve had lousy experiences with physicians, nurses, a surgeon and one anesthesiologist, the latter was one where I literally awakened in the middle of abdominal surgery. Said anesthesiologist ended up relieved for cause, the state contacted and his license revoked due to both my problem and multiple deaths that were preventable due to his not monitoring PO2 in the patients, resulting in hypoxia that resulted in brain death.
What is strange is that he didn’t go into a hospital where he wasn’t registered to practice in and begin working on patients. He didn’t visit “friends” in A&E and perform procedures on them. Even though he was utterly incompetent, he did know what was lawful and what was not.
Now, try learning about medical ethics. Then, learn what is lawful and what is not lawful in medical practice. Then, learn what trespass is, especially in the terms of medical treatment facilities.
As in, I could not start an IV on my father when the A&E nurse was having difficulties, even though I’m quite proficient at difficult vascular access and can even perform a subclavian cutdown to access central circulation. Only, I can only do so in certain facilities, military ones.
If I attempted to do so anywhere else, I’m open to all manner of unpleasant legal issues and rightfully so. The facility isn’t insured for me to work there. I’m not registered there, they don’t know my qualifications and certifications.
The same is true in every one of the above instances and worse, said “professional” was utterly unaware of any diagnostic imagery that might show a contraindication for their bone cracking and they don’t know anything other than what the patient, who knows little of what goes on inside of their body due to a lack of diagnostic imagery built into the human body and what their eyes tell them.
Diana, a couple of questions…1. do you really think that Chiroquacktors (sorry I just can’t help myself) “study the human body just like [real] doctors”, 2. what exactly are they adjusting when they push on someone (with forces that are not sufficient to do anything) and 3. what do they use to identify and prove these ‘adjustments’ have taken place?!
Hmmm, if doctors and surgeons weren’t allowed into the hospital, how would it be a hospital? Essential oils don’t give you strokes or break your neck! Unfortunately, chiropractors sometimes do.
the change of a chiro hurting you is as good as a chance as something going wrong in surgery . Do you refuse surgery when your doctor says you need it/ Why do you have to fill in a consent form if you have an operation. Nothing can go wrong , right?
Tell that to my father, who a chiroquack adjusted, dislodging plaque in his carotid artery, which was to be surgically removed the following week, giving him a stroke and inducing dementia.
Well Diana – one thing you need to think about is the ratio of [potential] risks and benefits. If the potential benefits are very, very small (research clearly shows that, at best, they are), then even if risks are fairly rare, the risk benefit ratio will be unnacceptable.
For myriad reasons, comparing surgeons and chiropractors makes no sense. Surely you must understand that?
Where is your proof? Essential oils can thin the blood and cause a stroke if a clot is dislodged elsewhere. Any good aromatherapist or massage therapist should know this. I take it you are not one of them.
Diana’s comment, in short “other people do things wrong too so we should just let everyone do whatever they want”.
“And they are “allowed”into hospital. If a chiro wants to visit friends or family in hospital , they can and if that includes a treatment asked from them by their loved one that to me is the same as bringing in an essential oil that the loved one wants. Or a partner giving a massage.”
No, that’s a total Analogy Fail. Chiros merely visiting as family and friends are “civilians” for the purposes of anything medical. A better analogy would be me, having some first-aid training, visiting a family member with a broken leg in hospital and deciding, “hey, I think I’ll just take it on myself to re-set and re-bandage that leg, it doesn’t look like the doc’s got it right…”. I’d expect hospital security to be marching me out quick-smart, never to return. That’s what should happen in these cases, too.
“So because many doctors don’t tolerate a chiro and possibly feel intimidated by them that’s why they do what they do more discreet.”
Intimidated by chiros? Oh please. Let me explain simply. The hospital doctor is medically and legally responsible for the medical care of that patient while in hospital. Period! Cowboy chiros playing out their secret agent fantasies are a risk to properly fulfilling those important responsibilities.
“You obviously work in a hospital where no mistakes are made every doctor and nurse are perfect…”
And you obviously don’t understand the first thing about the implications and ethics of “being a member of a profession”. One of those being that you can’t excuse your own “profession’s” wrongdoing by blame-shifting to completely unrelated issues. Benchmarking against the (alleged) worst is so very counterproductive, if chiros want to be taken at all seriously.
Thank you, Reasonablehank. We need more of you, can you clone yourself?
Thanks. I should put this on my “about” page, to balance out the Reasonable Wank testimonials provided by CAA chiropractors:
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Would you be that suprised if a back-street mechanic buggers-up your car when he promised he would fix it for half price? Exactly! So why is any of this post a suprise? What actually is a suprise, is that these chiropractors still exist in this day and age!
As a chiro myself, this disgusts me. Sneaking into hospitals to do that is awful especially with an activator which is a great tool for putting nails into dry wall but useless in every other way. That being said, my practice rarely involves manipulation anymore. Mostly pain science education, graded exposure to feared stimuli, exercise maybe some manual therapy etc. So consider there are some of us out there really try to bring an evidence base to the profession before you throw us all under the bus which some did in the comments section.
It’s people like you who have my sympathy, Rob. There are many of you out there. Unfortunately, the anti-science mob have louder voices and more affiliations.
No traction for conditions that require it?
That and PT did wonders for many people with injuries responsive to those treatments.
It is sad that you tend to get smeared by the same brush striking the stinkers.
To be honest, after hearing from you, if I were in your area, I’d come to you to help with my shoulder. We’re having a trial separation and its not going well, some good PT would do wonders!
Next time I prune a tree top, I’m going to pay a lot more attention to how the ladder is seated on the grass!
There’s a very…very small chance that the chiro-broke-childs-neck thing may not be true. Hank, do you have any info on the following media release put out by the CAA?
I’d be lying if I said I knew that the CAA is wrong. I just don’t know. One thing I do know: chiropractors like Bruce Whittingham making public comments which would imply that he blames the parents for the baby’s injury are pretty grubby. I’m wondering how Whittingham knows so much? He made this comment on the Mamamia Facebook page. It has been deleted, along with his other comments.
I first consider that it is a release by the CAA, with no supporting articles, documents or any other evidence.
I normally take a mainstream news story with a grain of salt, but with the organization in question, I have to question the veracity of their claim.
Especially when libel is involved, yet amazingly no court case was filed, no retraction mentioned.
Then, one considers the above from Hank, where the chiropractor first gives rather precise information regarding the case. Information normally protected by medical privacy laws at that. The chiropractor then goes on to say that the full details, some of which were just mentioned, were not released.
Erm, if the information was not released, how did the speaker know so many intricate details of the case to begin with, then speak out on those allegedly sealed findings?
Suddenly, I don’t need a grain of salt, I need an entire salt mine!
So was my previous comment about you giving inaccurate information possibly correct? Would you post an apology if this is the case?
OK, two posts, two responses:
Veritably. With the ability to provide citations to all viewers.
Okay, Whatever. Where, in my post, are my comments in relation to the baby with the broken neck?
What information that I have posted here is incorrect? Screenshots are awesome in their honesty. You didn’t answer that one.
Buck up with answers to my previous replies to you or you are gone. We done start new arguments without finishing the first one around here.
Dear hank and wizrd1 (or hank 2?)
I have confused a few post here. So sorry about that. Those comments were in the wrong place.
As for this post
“Public safety is paramount to the self-serving interests of these chiropractors who flagrantly breach codes of conduct, health policies, and any semblance of professional courtesy, in their chase for legitimacy, based on the unwarranted treatment of magic, invisible conditions (subluxations); this is a legitimacy they do not deserve.”
… is wrong on so many levels and I believe that you are more interested in arguing than the truth. This is an unsubstantiated, bias, arrogant and unfactual piece of dribble.
So congratulations on upsetting people. You do that very well.
Please show me just one chiropractor that actually live up to this definition. I would probably punch him in the face myself.
I just don’t see chiropractors actually sneaking into hospitals uninvited by either the patient or family, working without consent given.
Your gross generalization that one, if there is even one, towards the whole profession is just childish.
Oh – I just remember – watch the movie Jacob’s Ladder – there is a larger than life chiropractor actually doing this, except he went in and took the patient put of the hospital.
I haven’t met a chiropractor that is one these weirdo’s you make them out to be.
In Whatever’s world, copy and paste of the admission of misdeeds is not an admission, it is some form of libel.
Only a delusional person would take a motion picture and use it as support for his viewpoint, yet ignore the admissions of those who did perform such things.
One can imagine such a person sitting on a jury, listening to a confession of a felon, then said person voting to acquit!
One ponders an extremely impolite and vulgar word that refers to a rectum…
Okay, Whatever. You’re gone. You’re just trolling, under the courageous cloak of anonymity, without addressing a single point.
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The manner in which chiros were sneaking about performing their magic in secret, is surely a tacit admission that they know their practice is quackery and would never get formal approval for hospital visiting rights, as required by every other medical professional.
This debate will rage on and on.
So you think your chiropractic colleagues will continue to ply their trade, in hospitals, without permission? Does this concern you at all?
Ahh. Is that a “Teach the controversy”-type gambit I see…?
No, the “debate” as you so quaintly mislabel it, won’t “rage on and on”. Because this *discussion* has a natural terminator. Evidence – of the credible, clinical, rct-generated, reproducible, peer-reviewed variety. Just like those nasty doctors and pharmaceutical companies some (well, many) of your colleagues decry so vehemently. You either have this supporting evidence for your industry’s claims, or you don’t. Everything else is just white noise.
And you either take responsibility like the profession you present yourselves as, and effectively self-regulate your members who make unsupportable claims or act unethically, or watch your industry’s overall credibility flush even further down the nearest S-bend.
I would also like to see your answer to the specific ethical and clinical concerns raised by Andy’s question:
“So you think your chiropractic colleagues will continue to ply their trade, in hospitals, without permission? Does this concern you at all?”
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Slightly off topic – but that “Circle of Docs” pingback links to an interesting site. The linked article itself appears to be an essentially un-attributed cut and paste of the SMH article linked at the end as “read more”.
At first sight, the home page of the Circle site looks like fodder for a blogger wanting to expose the nutty side of chiropractic.
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